Chris Kuo is a journalist based in New York. His work has appeared in the New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, Inkwell, and a variety of other outlets. He studied political science and English at Duke University and is a George J. Mitchell scholar.
Your background: Was there a specific moment that made you realize you wanted to be a journalist? If not, how did you end up where you are?
Yeah, growing up, I wouldn't say that I idolized journalists or knew that I wanted to be a journalist— like nobody in my family is a professional writer or a journalist— but growing up, I always really love to read and just to write, not in a super formal way, but just casually. So yeah, I read voraciously. I did that for many years and I think that really shaped my desire to eventually want to try to become a writer. But it wasn't until my sophomore or junior summer of high school where I took some summer classes. There's this program that Harvard does that's called Harvard Summer School. Basically, it's just summer classes for high-schoolers and then adults can also take the classes. It's an extended school thing. I ended up taking two classes, and both were journalism related. One was called basic journalism, and then the other was called feature writing. The basic journalism class was basically just the nuts and bolts, the kind of stuff you learn in your ‘Intro to Journallism’ class, like how to write an inverted pyramid and so forth. And then the Feature Writing class was the one that I really fell in love with, and that was essentially writing interesting features and narrative pieces about Cambridge, in the Boston area. I remember there was one assignment where we had to do a profile of an “invisible person,” and this is just somebody that we would often come into contact with, but had never really spoken to or actually met. So I ended up asking to interview the manager of this local fast casual Indian restaurant in Harvard Square called Chutneys. Basically, he had this really incredible story of having immigrated from India, came to the US because his daughter had this really rare heart disease, and he raised lots of money in India in order to be able to pay for her medical care at Boston Children's Hospital. I think that story really opened my eyes to the possibilities of journalism. And just this idea that people, ordinary people, that we might not assume have really fascinating stories, actually have this incredible depth to them. And I think the interesting part of journalism for me— at least one part of it— is the opportunity to explore those stories and to be able to go deeper into people’s lives. And not just famous people— I've done some of that— but just people that I guess you might not expect to even have really, really crazy stories. I think that's sort of what catalyzed my interest in journalism, where I was like, “OK, maybe I can actually do this as a career.” Before that, it was always kind of intimidating to me. I knew I liked the craft of writing and so forth, but I didn't really think of it as a professional thing. But after those classes, I think those kind of instilled in me this realization that maybe I could do this professionally. In college, I went to Duke and I interned and did some professional news internships in college, and then also wrote for my student newspaper, The Duke Chronicle and edited for them. And I also took some journalism classes through a certificate program that Duke offers, so that was really where I began to take it more seriously. And I took this one class, Art of the Profile. And that was kind of similar to the Craft of Feature Writing class, with this whole emphasis on creative nonfiction writing and narrative journalism. And I think that's always what's kept me interested in journalism, is that specific type of journalism. There's many different kinds. But the newsy side, where you're breaking scoops, I can do that, but that's not necessarily what's most enjoyable and interesting to me about journalism.
What are your favorite types of stories to tell?
Yeah, I mean, profiles are definitely one type of story I really like to do.For the Art of the Profile class, that's basically all we did, and the final assignment was to do just a really in-depth profile. I profiled this guy who had graduated from Duke and had founded— he’s a Christian— and he founded a philanthropic nonprofit startup and the Profile ended up being like 40 pages, and he became one of my best friends to this day, kind of through that profile. But yeah, I think it's just magazine style writing. I haven't done that many full length magazine pieces or written for that many magazines, but that's sort of the type of journalism that I aspire to, and like to do. So on a smaller scale, just narrative writing. When I was at The Times—at The New York Times— I did some “great reads,” is what they call it, and it’s just a series where they do one great read every day, which is just a narrative, enterprise piece of journalism. So I really love doing those. I did several art-crime related stories, which was fascinating to me, like these really interesting characters, kind of out of, “Oceans 11,” very oddball characters, who did crazy things and it really made for super compelling narratives, cause you have these protagonists or antagonists, anti-heroes, and an opportunity to really flesh out characters. I was able to travel thanks to the funding the Times gave me to go to different places and visit people. I ended up calling a convicted art forger in prison and talking to him at length for many, many calls. So I had just these really fascinating opportunities to develop narrative stories.
What story/stories are you the most proud of?
That's a good question. It's interesting because I don't know if I have one single story, but I feel like at every stage of my journey there's been stories that have been impactful for me, but just at different levels. I'm trying to think of one that I've really enjoyed doing.. Yeah, it was basically— the headline is something like, “The Art Forger Had Fooled Thousands. Then he met Doug.” Basically, it's the story of this art forger who did this very specific kind of forgery where he would forge wood blocks and then use— he would forge ancient wood blocks, and then use those wood blocks to create prints, and then sell those prints online as if they were from the Renaissance era or something. And he was just, a really enterprising guy who ended up making a lot of money and fooling thousands of people. Basically, part of how he ended up getting caught was there was this really obsessive art or medieval antiques collector who came across his stuff and became interested— his name is Doug— and just started sleuthing, and compiling all these records about this guy, and eventually that was used by the FBI to track him down. So it's sort of this interesting catch-me-if-you-can story. But what was most fascinating was the interesting relationship between these two men, both of them very obsessed, in their own ways, about different things and the sort of obsessiveness of one leading to the unraveling of the other, and him being eventually caught by the FBI due to this guy's efforts. Yeah, that one, I think, was one of the most rewarding because it took so long. It was several months of reporting, calling the art forger. Earl is his name. I called him dozens of times. So yeah, that was very in-depth in terms of the reporting and it was also one of the final pieces I did as a fellow at the time, so it felt sort of like a capstone project, I guess. I would say that was one of the stories I'm more proud of.
What is your favorite story that you wanted to tell that didn’t get the greenlight or got killed?
I mean, there's stories that I would say I just never really completed because the internship time period ran out. So I remember when I was at The LA Times, I was trying to tell a story about a sort of housing-justice related issue involving tenants— predominantly low income Asian tenants — and some of the abuses, or at least, the alleged abuses conducted by this specific management or landlord company, and yeah, it was one of those things where it's just super tricky to actually get the reporting because many people didn’t speak English very fluently and there was a lot of difficulty in parsing out what the actual allegations were. It’s when you do a story that has the potential to be that hard-hitting, you want it to be airtight and I didn't really have the bandwidth during that one summer to really execute that. So yeah, that's sort of the one that got away, I guess. But there certainly have not been many stories, if any, that have been killed by higher-ups. There's certainly been a lot of pitches that I've pitched that are just not taken up, but that's not really something I think of as like, “Oh, I'm starting to work on a story, and then they kill it.” It's more of just the story, the idea itself, is not substantial enough, or not relevant to the specific publication or something.
What have been some of the most challenging moments of your career?
Yeah, I haven't had a super long career, I don't even know if it's a career yet. I think it is something that a lot of young journalists experience, but the journalism industry is a very, very competitive industry, as I'm sure you've experienced as well. It's difficult to break into and, I think, even once you feel like you've broken in, it's still hard to get the jobs you wanna get because there's so many qualified applicants. And there's just honestly not enough jobs to go around for the number of people I think who want to get into journalism, even though I feel very grateful and blessed to be able to have the opportunities I've had. So it's a challenging environment I think to really feel stability, financial stability and career stability. So I think that overall has been challenging. I think that was the most challenging coming out of college, when initially applying for jobs in the fall of my senior year, which is when, a lot of internship deadlines were closing, I had the sense that I was just gonna have to do a summer internship out of college, which a lot of people do and it's fine, but it was kind of worrying to me because I was like, “I'm just gonna graduate and I’m just gonna have to be an intern,” you know? Which isn't to demean anyone who does that, it's just sort of was concerning to me. So I think that was challenging general uncertainty, especially when I was comparing myself to my peers at Duke. A lot of those who had offers, some of them had return offers after their sophomore summer of college, when they interned at McKinsey or other consulting companies in finance or tech. A lot of people in my group of peers went into these very established careers, and journalism was certainly not one of those types of industries. But you don't really go into journalism because of the financial career stability, so I kind of knew that going in.
What writers and authors have influenced your work the most?
I would say a lot of the writers who have deeply influenced me are just kind of similar to what I was saying before with my admiration for magazine writing. They're writers who are part of the movement of “new journalism” or, “new-new journalism.” I don't know, there are various schools of thought, what it's called, but basically, just fusing the techniques of fiction with nonfiction storytelling, so creative nonfiction, I guess. And done at a very high level with magazines. So there's a writer at The New Yorker, Evan Osnos, who I really, really like. He has a book about China called Age of Ambition that I really loved. And he also just does regular magazine writing. Another writer at The New Yorker, David Grann. I don't know if he's still there, but I think was there for a while and he has also written many books. Patrick Radden Keefe, also at The New Yorker, Jia Tolentino at The New Yorker. Leslie Jamison. Some writers of The Times as well, like Dan Barry, Eli Saslow. Ross Andersen at The Atlantic, Elizabeth Bruenig at The Atlantic, a lot of these are, I mean, they're basically all non-fiction writers. And then in terms of fiction, I don't know if they've influenced me as much in terms of my actual journalist career, but in terms of my worldview, I would say kind of the classics, like C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien have been very influential. Timothy Keller. But they're a bit more of the worldview, ideas, influence, rather than the techniques of writing.
How have you seen journalism/the media change throughout your career? What further changes do you anticipate?
Yeah, I mean, again, in my personal life, the span of my career, I didn't necessarily see drastic, drastic changes, althoughI I think that one of the largest changes is just the restructuring of some of these legacy newsrooms that people thought were pretty stable. So like, The Washington Post and The LA Times are probably the two case studies of this. I interned at The LA Times in the summer of 2020 to the summer of 2021, and I think back then, it was still relatively okay, like it had been acquired by Patrick Soon-Shiong, the billionaire. But in recent years, I think it's fallen under a lot more turmoil financially— yeah, I guess primarily financially. And in the Washington Post, I'm sure you've been following all the controversy surrounding some of the decisions that the owner, Bezos, has made. So those changes, I think they are part of just a larger trend ongoing, of legacy newsrooms struggling to figure out how to monetize journalism and make it financially sustainable. I think The LA Times is still trying to figure that out and trying to innovate. And The Post as well as bringing on— they have this third newsroom idea, and making contracts with content creators, and just really trying to adapt to a more video-centric content, creator-centric ecosystem of media, which I think is smart. It just remains to be seen whether it's executed. So I think those changes have been pretty stark. I'm trying to think of other overarching changes. I definitely think newsrooms are still trying to grapple with, “What does it mean for a journalist to be objective? Is it important for a journalist to be objective?” And that's then put to the test with some very, very polarizing issues, such as, you know, during the summer of 2020 with Black Lives Matter movement, and then more recently, with Israel, Gaza and the war there. And so I'm a firm believer that journalists should be independent. I think the term objectivity and “being objective” is sort of loaded and can be misconstrued, so I kind of stay away from that. But I do think that the core principle of independence is very essential to journalism. There’s a wider sort of debate that often breaks down along generational lines in terms of whether that's something that should be championed in journalism, right? I think the last big thing I think is the AI issue, and that's very much within my “career,” and very, very recent. I think newsrooms are still trying to figure out how to implement that. We’ve seen some newsrooms go the full, sort of off the deep end by actually using AI to produce the entirety of this story. I forget which publication did that, but it was very controversial. And then there's newsrooms that do bullet point summaries using AI at the top of the story. The Times, I'm pretty sure, has in-house AI tools that journalists can use. But I'm not totally sure on what that looks like. I do know they've hired a “Director of AI Initiatives,” and stuff like that, so I think that that is the one thing which I'm sure a lot of the journalists will mention is that it has a huge potential to transform the industry. How it will transform it remains to be seen. But I do think, at the very least, it will be a tool that will be increasingly integrated into the workflow of journalists, and I think that's probably a good thing as long as it doesn't compromise the ethics of the journalists themselves and it doesn't compromise the commitment to excellence, independence, in-depth, rigorous reporting and actually doing the the labor of writing. I think if you use it for —obviously, you would have to get newsroom approval— but I mean it could be useful I think for research, or even for copyediting in some scenarios, although I think human copy editors are still really important. And then maybe also for doing investigative work where it can comb through a wide amount of a huge amount of data. So I think there's still this ongoing battle about whether I can use, or whether companies like OpenAI can use content from The New York Times or other news companies. And I think that's another major legal battle. I think The Journal, I think the News Corps— which is a parent company The Journal has— or Dow Jones has made a contract with OpenAI that they can use their content, so I think different companies and different news organizations have come to different positions with that.
People consume more media than they ever have. How do you think this has changed the world?
Yeah, that's been on my mind a lot because I do think, like again, these rooms are trying to adapt to figure that out. Because, I mean, TikTok is probably one of the biggest ways that people our age or younger get news, right? Or Instagram reels, or just Instagram. And I don't think people go through Google search as much. I don't think people go on Twitter, for instance, and then actually click links and then go from Twitter to these news organizations. Increasingly, they're seen as “walled gardens.” Once people are on these platforms, they stay within those platforms. So I think places like The New York Times are really trying to get people to actually go to the home page of The New York Times, like the app, and not try to go to the times through other sources. So yeah, personally, I'm not that good at creating content. I'm not naturally a content creator, probably not my strong suit. I also think I try to— I honestly don't have TikTok, I don't really go on that. The closest I'll get is like, Instagram reels, which is just, I guess, recycled TikToks a lot of time. Maybe I'll actually get one. I have periodically, like I had one when I was a culture fellow. Yeah, I don't know. The Times has done a really good job of— and the Journal as well— creating more vertical video from their journalists and trying to just encourage that. I think they're trying to hire more arts and culture critics that are adept at or at least willing to kind of experiment with different storytelling forms. So I think that'll be important. But yeah, I do think it's an issue on the newsroom side. How do we reach people who are not coming to dedicated news apps or new sites? And then two, just from a larger perspective, the problem I think with a lot of content-driven news on social media platforms—those can be good, like I'm not trying to say that only elite news companies should be the gatekeepers of what people know and understand about the world— but I do think that there's a reason that these newspapers have historically been the conveyors and purveyors of those information. It’s because they have these rigorous standards in terms of the processes of acquiring information, and those standards are not always upheld with the content creation. So I guess I worry about the potential danger of misinformation and that will become, I think, even more of an issue with Artificial intelligence. I just worry that people are going to be misled by not having information from people, from sources that are trustworthy. And also with that, I think social media— this is somewhat true of news organizations— can, particularly because of the way the algorithm works, feed you content that you want to consume. And so it actually can very easily perpetuate this kind of confirmation bias where people just seek out the information and news that confirms their kind of worldview and outlook on the world. So I think that's also a major danger. I mean, you can get that if you just read, for instance, FOX News or watch FOX News, or just read or watch MSNBC or CNN or something like that, so I think even with trusted news organizations, you have to read a breadth and variety. But at least there's not this algorithm that's actively trying to shape the contours of your or at least conform the news to the contours of whatever worldview already exists to you.
What is your advice for younger people interested in journalism?
I think it depends on what stage of life you're in. I guess, for those who are reading this interview and are in college, I would absolutely try out an internship somewhere. Because I think it's pretty low risk. I think journalism has a lot of transferable skills where you can intern in it and then still go on to a lot of different things. And I think it's hard to really know one, whether you'll enjoy it or two like, whether you'll be good at it unless you actually do it in such a practical way. And I would also say to get involved with your student newspaper. Getting involved in student publications was such a rewarding thing that I did in college, both because of the leadership skills I was able to develop from leading the news organization. But also, journalism at that level has a lot of opportunity and room to fail, and I think that's something you don't really get when you're writing for national publications. And so it's a fun experiment, and you can write with a lot of flair, and you can write about a community that’s just such a fascinating form of communal life, right? Universities, I think, are so interesting, and especially in this moment of time, it's such a hotbed of news. So yeah, I would recommend that. In terms of craft, many people say this, but I think just reading a lot can be really, really helpful, and it's probably one of the most helpful things for improving your writing. Just finding really good examples of good writing and then reading them, but reading them actively and and not just for the transmission of information or enjoyment. In certain cases, choosing to dissect the piece and understand why this piece worked the way it did, you know; why the lead worked so well on you, why the conclusion or the kicker worked, what about the writing style you appreciated and how can you adopt that in your own style. And then I would say just write a lot. Just like with any creative profession, do the thing again and keep doing it and. Keep failing and iterating. I think if you're out of college, it can be harder to break into the journalism industry, but I would still say there are ways in which you can freelance, and you just have to start building up clips, which are just examples of published work. And so I would just start at whatever level you're at, you know? If you haven't written at all for any publication, then just start maybe with a Substack, or start writing for smaller regional publications, or niche publications. Maybe lean into whatever interest you have as just a person with curiosity about the world, and then leverage that for your writing. There's obviously people who care about some topics more than others, but a lot of people just are interested in people who are interested in things, like people who are obsessed with things.
Part of journalism is paying attention and asking good questions. What are some daily habits or ways of being that promote paying attention and asking good questions?
Yeah, I think to be honest, I could be better at this. I don't know that I've integrated it as much into my daily routine outside of work, I guess, so I think I can certainly be better at this. I do think something that I sort of adopted when I was sort of before college, and then during college, I started doing this practice of just writing, in a gratitude journal, 5 things I was grateful for. Many people do that, but I think that beyond its psychological and spiritual benefits, there's also the aspect in which it prompts you to notice— and I think any form of journaling can do that— but I think just the physical act of writing things down and recalling can be really helpful, whether that’s carrying a notebook with you throughout the day. I think so much of writing, whether that's journalistic writing or just nonfiction, or even fiction writing, any type of writing that is grounded in the real world, and that can really benefit from cultivating the art of paying attention. And I think one of the best ways of cultivating that is just literally— maybe just pulling out a notes app on your phone and just jotting down some things you notice, some quotes. I remember I took a personal essay writing class in college, and that was one of the things that the professor actually has us do, was was a whole module on just writing essays that were drawn from quotes— there was a quoting section— so we had to basically write an essay that was based on quotes that we had overheard. We had another one that was about seeing, and we had to write a personal essay about observations from what we had seen in our day-to-day lives in college. So I think just finding small practical ways to do that. And I think that's just a good posture of going through the world regardless of whether or not you're a writer. I think the act of observing. There’s a lot of darkness that happens in the world, but I also think, in the course of our lives, we kind of get caught up in the mundane, ordinary, and also sort of in the process of doing, that overlooks some of the beautiful, ordinary things that are in our lives. And I think forcing ourselves to notice or pay attention can be a healthy way to sort of readjust to that.
What do you read (journalism and not)?
I'm a print subscriber to The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and I guess that's it. But yeah, I read those pretty regularly for magazines. I'll search from time to time, and try to read New York Magazine, which I think is really incredible as well. For daily news, The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. I can't say I’m the best at reading every single news article. There is so much and the news can be overwhelming because it's just a lot, especially at this moment in time. But I do try to stay up to date. I get a lot of e-mail newsletters that are rundowns of the daily news. Right now, I'm working through Demon Copperhead, which I'm kind of late to the game with, but a really beautiful book. Uh, what else am I reading? I'm also reading this collection of an anthology of essays called The Contemporary American Essay, edited by Phillip Lopate, and that's just a collection of really well written essays, nonfiction essays. There's this one essay about a guy who does a temporary job in a bagel shop in New York that I recently read that was just so good. It's called the “Portrait of the Bagel as a Young Man,” I think, something like that. So yeah, I tried to read just a mix of nonfiction fiction. I could be better about reading more fiction, honestly. I don't read as much fiction as I would like to. Yeah, I read more nonfiction I would say.
This interview was conducted by Grace Mackey.
